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  1. #1

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    Default Flaking A Line At The Scene

    I was just trying to better understand how other departments operate at a scene when it comes to deploying an attack line. I know for example, my company likes to stay proficient with deploying a line whether it sounds good or not. The more practice at a bullshit alarm will be beneficial for us down the road. I only bring this up because more often than not, whether it be at fire school or within different departments, attack lines are not being deployed the right way (in my opinion only). Lines are being pulled and not tied into a discharge, or being pulled and flaked out only half assed with a pile of spagetti. For a Truckie this may be greek but I want to know how other departments operate or if you have anything to bring to this, because the bottom line is you need the wet stuff for the red stuff and if a line is not deployed the correct way then the lives of other memebrs are in jeapordy.
    Last edited by kye994; 01-02-2008 at 08:33 PM. Reason: spelling/grammar

  2. #26
    rollover
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    Well said Signal 12. I agree with most of your comments about the use of pre-connects for the vast majority of the jobs in Nassau. (I was once told that Nassau engine chauffeurs have an uncanny ability to line up the pre-connects over the pump panel with the front door of any house). There are times, however where you need to use the 21/2, and that is where I think there is some froom for improvment. I buffed a 10 about a year ago or so--a fully completely involved house fire--out the door, out all of the windows all you could see was flames. The first Engine hit a hydrant directly across the street from the house, and the crew, for some reason ,pulled the 13/4 pre-connect. Then they pulled off the second pre-connect and eventuality, after a considerable period of time, they knocked it down.

    In that situation, the extra time it takes to pull 3 or 4 lengths of 21/2 and connect it to a discharge is well worth it. Achieve a faster knockdown, and then use the pre-connects for mop up. Perhaps it is the officer who needs to make it clear that a large volume of fire calls for a different approach than a single room going.

  3. #27
    Rant Moderator zeroone
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    "(I was once told that Nassau engine chauffeurs have an uncanny ability to line up the pre-connects over the pump panel with the front door of any house)"

    And this is one of the problems with them. They block out the first & second due truck companies!
    "The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self restraint enough to keep from meddling with them while they do it". -T. Roosevelt

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Signal 12 View Post
    That is a rather bold statement when grouping in the entire fire service, particulary enginemen as a whole - all things considering ... the engine can do their job without the truck. It won't be easy, but they could. However as the truck, we COULD NEVER do our job without the engine. And I'm assigned to a truck in a career department. To make a comment like that, shit - do you also say stupid things like "send up another can and hold the line?"

    When your dealing with fires - any fires, the answer is water ... fast water. NYC doesn't have pre-connects with the exception of the front bumper discharge, and that is because any 1 3/4" hose line can not exceed 6 continuous lengths (300 feet). Since tenement fires are the backbone of FDNY structural responses, more than 300 feet of hose is often required. What's Nassau County? 95% residential, furthermore it's private dwellings, not just simply 'resdiential'.

    Every firefighter at The Rock attends engine operations each day, for the duration of the academy. Almost like taking math class in school - for 2nd period, you've got math. Well over a 3-6 month period, your taught how to estimate a stretch, because it is necessary. When are you taught how to estimate a stretch at FSA, in primaries or essentials? When has your officer gone over estimating a stretch with you - as in depth as the members of the FDNY are taught?

    One length from the rig to the building, possibly two ... one per floor or stair case, half landing or no half landing? One length or two from the top of the stairs to the fire door, a length for the fire apartment? Well hole, no well hole? Where do we keep the extra hose before it's needed to be advanced? Can we force that persons door ... just to have room for the hose? What about going up on the next landing and letting gravity feed it down to us?

    Has that been taught to you? Maybe it has? Do you have a private dwelling in your district that would require all that in order to properly position the first line? Not a chance!

    So why fight it? Why make a negative statement about firemen and about pre-connects? Do what works. Ever hear ... "When in Rome?"

    You can have a pre-connect that goes up to 6 lengths ... it is possible. My department has 2 engines that do, and then due to size limitations two other engines (one of them is a quint) have 5 lengths on each pre-connect. Our closest neighbors do as well ... 600 foot pre-connects. Why not? How good is your department, better yet your company at controling a stretch? Forget getting engough hose off the rig, how about getting it to where it needs to go, without kinks and as fast as possible?

    The 11 AM crew of the school district worker, fire police members, EMS soccer mom and the over enthusiastic do gooder new guy ... THEY have a much better shot at getting a line into place that is pre-connected than having to the estimate a stretch off the back step. Would it be great if all firefighters could? It'd be a dream, in fact it is some people's dreams because I personally feel that ALL of US lack when it comes to the BASICS. And you can't get more basic that getting water on the fire. But "when in Rome", do what works.

    Last I checked experience wasn't at an all time high in our fire service, responses were down, turnouts are at their worst, firehouse politics result in members getting placed on truck committees who are unaware that there is a practice of estimating hose stretches and that you CAN stretch off the back step, etc. Make things as easy as possible. If not for the member on the scene, than for you or the officer who has to maintain that rig. Keep things simple, simple to get off and simple to put back on. Color code, label the needed/SUGGESTED pump psi, etc.

    Do what works, and for Nassau County - if done right and set up properly, pre-connects do work.
    Yea, apparently you havent been assigned to an engine, because than you would know that grossly overstretching a short stretch by 2 or three lengths, especially when its 11am and you only have 2 members stretching a line like in a volunteer dept. , is just as bad as short stretching. Just one kink in a hoseline will knock 20 psi off the pressure in the line making an uneffective stream from the nozzle. And thats just one kink! I doubt your going to just have 1 kink with 2 or 3 extra lengths. Have one guy on the nozzle and one guy to chase the kinks? I think it would be easier to estimate a stretch correctly. I dont know. Maybe thats me just saying some more " STUPID SHIT". Good job.
    If you cant bring your " A " game everyday, Its time to find a new profession.

  5. #29
    chaos
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    Pre-connects are a matter of convenience for use in your district. You have the luxury of being able to know how long a stretch needs to be from prior experience in your district. But we don't always stay in district being able to to determine a hose stretch is a must for all members who respond on an engine. it is an art form in itself and mastery takes time. thats most likely why all basic firefighting texts have a section on extending the line.

  6. #30

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    I think a good engine company that drills frequently can deploy and put in place a line when streching fire to hydrant with minimal manpower. They key is training. Everyone need to know what the other is doing. Preconnects have their place. I'm not a fan of them though, and they are hard to pack on my rig. As for kinks when streching a line, how could anyone pass one and not fix it. We are all firefighters.

  7. #31

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    If you can stretch it in a timely matta with one guy. ant to shabby
    signal 10 "sh!7'S blowing out the window"GOING TO WORK BOYS

  8. #32

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    Depending on the over all lenght of the jumper, cross lay ect.
    signal 10 "sh!7'S blowing out the window"GOING TO WORK BOYS

  9. #33
    "Whadda ya want from me? Signal 12
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    Quote Originally Posted by asfc40 View Post
    If you can stretch it in a timely matta with one guy. ant to shabby

    Not to break your balls, but there is not one cross lay bed between your company or the one down the road that is going to reach every room of every structure in your district, esp your district. And if you disagree, than the rig that the line is coming off of is out of position.

    On the North Shore pre-connect worked for a long time, but like the rigs were many moons ago, stretching off the back step is ESSENTIAL in an area where houses are remote from the road and of larger than normal size. You cannot effectively stretch a line with 1 firefighter off the back of a rig ... at least not a line more than 2-3 lengths, and that is geing generous.

    Considering that due to over all friction loss of a 1 3/4" handline, no single cross lay can every be more than 300', unless it is filled out with 2 1/2", and if that's not commonly agreed to be not practical ... the companies would never go for it.

    The answer is training, training and more training. Discipline and men stretching effeciently, effectively and like gentlemen. It means a nozzleman taking his folds and each man after him doing the same, it means pausing between the nozzle, back-up, door and control. It's not a tournament, it's certainly not Kentland and it's not the City. But there has to be an adaptation to the old and ineffective way of lining up the cross lays with the front door of the house and some jackass coming over and shoulder loading half the bed and then beating feat to the house.

    Have an SOP for cross lays and for going off the back step. Seems redundant, make it fun, make it interesting, find new drill sites, get feed back from the guys, do it over and over again, have contests, have a water fight. If your dept doens't have an SOP for this or if it seems funny to you ... well, have an ad-hoc company plicy or a policy amongst the men - when you guys are around, this is what is going to be done and everyone is on the same page.

    Handlines not getting to where they need to go in a timely fashion is why these one and two bedroom jobs (these are the good jobs), turn in to "battalion drills" or "(insert either North or South) Shore invitationals."

  10. #34
    4102
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    The answer is training, training and more training. Discipline and men stretching effeciently, effectively and like gentlemen. It means a nozzleman taking his folds and each man after him doing the same, it means pausing between the nozzle, back-up, door and control. It's not a tournament, it's certainly not Kentland and it's not the City. But there has to be an adaptation to the old and ineffective way of lining up the cross lays with the front door of the house and some jackass coming over and shoulder loading half the bed and then beating feat to the house.


    we run a 400 foot X 1&1/2 and it puts out a lot of fire and it works great it can even be extended to be a 700 foot attack line have been using it for god knows how long and it puts out alot of fire and i have used it it gets deployed quick and efficient. NEVER had a problem with it. but like you say you need traning and discipline.
    you cant compare long island with kentland because it is like night and day. when you go to over 150 fires a year its different.. dont get me wrong i love being a fire fight on long island.. i just have to put the facts out there... the way things are done in pg are nothing like here BOSS!
    THE FINAL COUNT DOWN HAS BEGUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "LONG LIVE THE BLAK SHEEP"

    BRING IT BACK 1ST DUE . 412 THE ORIGINAL "412 1ST DUE IN THE VIEW"

  11. #35
    "Whadda ya want from me? Signal 12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4102 View Post
    The answer is training, training and more training. Discipline and men stretching effeciently, effectively and like gentlemen. It means a nozzleman taking his folds and each man after him doing the same, it means pausing between the nozzle, back-up, door and control. It's not a tournament, it's certainly not Kentland and it's not the City. But there has to be an adaptation to the old and ineffective way of lining up the cross lays with the front door of the house and some jackass coming over and shoulder loading half the bed and then beating feat to the house.


    we run a 400 foot X 1&1/2 and it puts out a lot of fire and it works great it can even be extended to be a 700 foot attack line have been using it for god knows how long and it puts out alot of fire and i have used it it gets deployed quick and efficient. NEVER had a problem with it. but like you say you need traning and discipline.
    you cant compare long island with kentland because it is like night and day. when you go to over 150 fires a year its different.. dont get me wrong i love being a fire fight on long island.. i just have to put the facts out there... the way things are done in pg are nothing like here BOSS!


    That's right, it's nothing like Long Island. Here we don't have inexperienced guys living off old urban legends (that they were not a part of), video taping themselves as they jap out other companies of their first due assigment by driving against oncomming traffic (in engines with closet hooks mounted in the cab) and on the front lawns of Garden Apartment complexes - just to get that first line stretched off of booster water. Maybe after something really bad happens will people finally realize that it is responsibility of all of the brothers to make sure that the first line is in operation and adequate. But let's get the topic back on track and if you want to debate who can give who a run for their money ... send me a PM and we'll sort it out there.

  12. #36

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    Cross lays and preconnects are the bread and butter of many departments engine company operations. Kentland can be taken for what it is worth, it seems that its reputation is putting the argument out of perspective. The Baltimore city fire department (whom I work for) operates its engine companies with three preconnects. One 150' cross lay, one 250' cross lay of 1 3/4 and 250' 2/1/2 off the back. THATS IT. There are no residental or commercial dead beads. The remainder (beside the bumper lines and the standpipe racks) of the hose on the wagon is supply, (3inch and 5inch)

    DCFD operates in a similar fashion where its engine co's have two 200' 1/34 crosslays a FOUR HUNDRED foot 1/3/4 preconnect off the back and 200' of 2 1/2 preconnect off the back. Plus two 100' standpipe racks. Which are used occasionally to extend the 400 ft line to a 500-600 ft line

    The BCFD and if you want the DCFD are two of the busiest fire departments in terms of working fires a year by company in the world. And these departments operate entirely with preconnected lines. Granted these departments also use 3inch supply line which can be used to extend.

    Now to hopefully stem some questions. BCFD operates depending on the day 15 of its twently ladder companies in tiller trucks. Right there an example of how tight the streets are in that extremely old city. Good apparatus positioning keeps the engine out of the way even though crosslays are being pulled 99% of the time. Both departments expect there members to put these attack lines in service with two men. Officer and pipeman, both these departments operate with a leadoff man to take the hydrant. In four man engine companies (including the driver) DCFD uses minuteman loads, and BCFD uses flat loads (which many companies do not have any loops) Both these departments operate with the idea that a quick attack with an 1 3/4 is the preferred method over stretching 2 1/2. The DCFD 400ft line and its extension to 600 ft are typically used in a situation where the 2nd in engine is pumping a plug and deploys an attack line from that position. So a good majority of times the elevation of the line isnt great. a 500 of 600 foot line up 5-6 stories might not work It does do an excellent job where you have to stretch half way down the block to back up on a residential fire(ill have to talk to a DCFD pump operator about maximum elevation) 2 1/2 is usually only pulled on defensive operations. The engine companies are so fast in terms of arriving and pulling lines that there are typically two to three lines in operation within three to five minutes of arrival. In case anyone is not familiar with the BCFD and the DCFD both departments do not have the reputation of letting things burn down. They are extremely aggressive interior fire departments.

    Im not trying to make this post a who's better than who thing, Im just doing what ive always hoped to do on this page, which is give a little perspective from another part of the country. And show what a few other extremely busy all career department do in similar situations (in addition to the FDNY)
    Last edited by greggreg259; 02-20-2008 at 01:54 PM.

  13. #37

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    Well Said 12.

    4102, what type of flow do you get from 400' or 700' of 1-1/2" attack line equipped with an automatic fog nozzle?

    BTW, I'm not looking for the response like -- enough to put out the fire.

    Stay Safe

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by dawreckingstick View Post
    Well Said 12.

    4102, what type of flow do you get from 400' or 700' of 1-1/2" attack line equipped with an automatic fog nozzle?

    BTW, I'm not looking for the response like -- enough to put out the fire.

    Stay Safe
    the max pressure you can pump that hose at is 250psi. you couldnt even pump that much 1 1/2 if you wanted to.
    ALL U NEED IS A WRECKIN STICK!

  15. #39

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    As an engineer I do not think I would ever pump through 400 feet of 1 1/2 or 1 13/4.Would rather pull our 200 foot 2 1/2 preconnect,take off the nozzle and put a wye on it pull how much 1 3/4 is needed and add it on.Anything over 400 feet sounds like too much friction loss to get a good stream of water.

  16. #40
    4102
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    well greggreg259 summed it up for you guys. I AM NOT ON HERE TO MAKE FRIENDS OR ENEMYS but this is what we do and have done for years and it works just fine... and sig12 no need to bash kentland... we dont bash fdny and there squid companys or any other companys.. in fact we love the guys from the city of new york. i have lots of friends in the fdny and it is diff. trust me i know. b/c if you like to know we drill day in and day out and run the lines quit fine.. "Here we don't have inexperienced guys living off old urban legends" as you stated. WE DONT LIVE ON OTHER PEOPLES COAT TAILS. dont need to. last time i checked the fdny was not the safest place. have been in the city see the way some guys drive and operate... in the end this is how you got to look at it
    "different clowns same circus". we are not out to prove anything to anyone. dont need to . sorry if i hurt any ones feeling but hey...
    i know you hate p.g county but dont bring kentland in to this it is a LONG ISLAND WEBSITE SO KEEP IT ON THE ISLAND.
    pm me if you like to talk more
    THE FINAL COUNT DOWN HAS BEGUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "LONG LIVE THE BLAK SHEEP"

    BRING IT BACK 1ST DUE . 412 THE ORIGINAL "412 1ST DUE IN THE VIEW"

  17. #41

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    [ame="http://youtube.com/watch?v=o2uwAu802Us"]http://youtube.com/watch?v=o2uwAu802Us[/ame]

  18. #42

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    You can see during the stretch, when the three members run past with 2 engine in the back round, the officer is carrying the standpipe rack over his shoulder while humping line, they are probably about to extend that line

  19. #43

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    It is all about a speedy deployment to prevent further loss of life and property due to the progression of fire. After all, thats what we are here for, and being paid and or funded to do.

    Those who model themselves after NYC and take pride in being able to estimate how many sections of 2.5'' to stretch should take some other factors into consideration.

    Most if not all departments are not blessed with 5 and 6 man engine and truck companies. Also, many (especially the agressive ones) are not waiting for a second engine to arrive before they begin to attack the fire.

    When one person can efficiently deploy 250' of attack line up and around a stair well in a matter of seconds, the advantage of preconnected lines becomes apparent, especially when staffing is a major concern.

    For those who feel that precpnnected lines are making engine companies incompetant by estimation of needed hose length, I again call bullshit. Each company should be extremely familiar with thier first response district, and with that said, should also train in thier first response district. The first in officer should be able to determine which preconnect is going to be adequate for the job. So what if you have a little extra, you can always create loops in the stairwell, or flake extra into a room or apartment across the hall. And you have water available as soon as you call for it.

    Preconnects also takes a lot of pressure of the pump operator. Now there is no need for a pump operator to try to calculate a plethora of possible pressures needed, just adjust for elevation; especially if a shortage of staffing will require him to engage in other activities such as connecting to hydrants, or help extending lines.

    Those are just my two cents.

  20. #44
    FaceToTheFloor
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    Having only pre-connected attack lines is good for short staffed units. But, what happens when the stretch comes up short and nobody drills on hose estimation anymore. Dump th ewhole bed and clean it up later???? WRONG.

    Personally I feel that learning hose estimation is a very important part of the job. Having units pull up and simply "dump and flake" the whole pre-connected bed increases the potential for kinks, weight of the line to be advanced and the other usual suspects. The line may only need to be a total of 200 feet to reach fire and cover the entire structure. Having 400 feet of hose out is inefficient in my book. Having firefighters that can deploy both systems makes them think more and think better.

    As for making it easier to pump??? How hard is it to count lengths and do that math??? Friction loss math is on a 4th grade level. We rely too much on automation and convenience. If the ECC has to stay sharp by watching intake and pressure gauges he is paying attention and not "assuming" the pump and computer are taking care of it. He needs to watch the fire buildign to see if the fire is going out in comparison to how many minutes of 180 or 240 gallons per minute he is flowing and communicate that to his officer.

    Also, The pump does not know when there is a burst length, the pump does not know when there is a kink, the pump does not know when there is cavitation. These flow meters, pre-connects, automated pressure relief systems were made to simplify operations, pick up the slack for reducing manpower in paid departments and yes it does its job when it works. HOWEVER, when the flow meter fails, the auto idle / pressure mode system fails, and you are left holding your hammer, you have to know the basics. You have to be able to get the brothers water and not stand there saying, "It's broken, call someone."

    All of it ties together, Know the old way, the new way, the "street" way and the "book" way.
    DHMBYS

  21. #45

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    Your still estimating the stretch based on what preconnect your going to choose to pull. If the stretch comes up short extend it with your standpipe pack. If its really that long reverse lay with your supply line. Its also based heavily on your first due area. If you have super long stretches. Pull your preconnected 2 1/2 line first. Any operation that requires that much hose to just get the first line in operation is going to require another company for manpower. Have a reverse lay bag on the back step, with a double male, a double female and a gated Y to turn your 3" into a leaderline.

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