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  1. #1
    Rant Moderator zeroone
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    Default Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    on 12/2 at approx 1400hrs, 5 Stone Arch Rd in Old Westbury. A landscaper fell into a a trench that was being dug for drainage pipe. The male became trapped in the 6' deep trench when dirt fell in on him as a result of his fall. 5900 & 5902 were able to free and quickly remove him as he appeared to be de-compensating. 5900 requested a MediVac. NCPD 2363 responded ( 2 man unit for the tour), assisted with packaging and removing the patient from a shallow end of the trench. He was transfered to the nearby Helo #6 and removed to NUMC to be evaluated by the Trauma Team.

    Roslyn FD
    5900
    5902
    5611
    562
    591

    NCPD
    ESU 2421
    2363
    Helo #6
    "The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self restraint enough to keep from meddling with them while they do it". -T. Roosevelt

  2. #2
    btb
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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    I thought owpd pulled him out?

  3. #3
    SQUAD1CHIEF
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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    did these first responders go into an unsupported trench that was 6 feet deep to "rescue" this patient?
    was he traumatic?
    without all the particulars it sounds like they made a risky move.

  4. #4

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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    Male fell through id say a 7-8 foot hole resulting in at least a broken leg. The victims condition was getting worse by the minute. 591 and 562 were onscene. They did not need the crew from 562 and they were ordered to standby for any other alarms. Overall good job by all, and the move from the chiefs grabbing the guy out of the hole is debatable, but good job and they did what had do be done.

  5. #5
    Rant Moderator zeroone
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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    both chiefs said he wasn't looking well and were able to quickly remove him. Yeah, i suppose its debatable, but they said they took a chance since he appeared to be going down hill.
    "The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self restraint enough to keep from meddling with them while they do it". -T. Roosevelt

  6. #6
    SQUAD1CHIEF
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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    In my opinion this was an extremely dangerous risk first responders took to remove a patient with a non life threatening lower extremity injury. trench cave ins are very dangerous and kill many people a year. remember we didnt put that victim in his predicament. a good incident commander will call for necessary resources and not allow anyone in the trench unitl it is supported with trench panels and struts at a minimum. this could have easliy escalated into members becoming trapped due to a secondary cave in. Dirt moves very fast you are not moving out of its way. more importantly the weather has also been a factor in loosening up the local earth with alot of rain lately.
    debateable is not going to explain to our brother FF's family why he or she is dead. we need to think before we react especially in confined space, trench, and haz mat incidents slow it down get the victim out properly by shoring up metering and ultimately making it safe for us to enter.

  7. #7
    redneck
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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    I was not there so I do not know what really happened but if BOTH chiefs went into an unsupported hole then that is wrong BUT it all worked out well and it really is no differant than driving down the block seeing a house fire knowing someone is inside and entering without gear or backup and making the grab. Both scenerios are wrong and I think almost everyone on this board would do the same. Both these chiefs have a good head on thier shoulders and know what they were getting into and i assume there were many hands on scene to keep watch and assist.

    Just remember in this situation the first thing that must be done is to get everyone away from the hole and all non-trained people out of the hole. If there is nothing to shore up the hole it self atleast spread wood or ladder around the hole to even out the weight of the rescuers then if you must Take the chance and enter the hole do so slowly with as limited contact with the sides as you can and NEVER NEVER NEVER enter a hole with out someone remaining topside if it is just you and the victim wait for someone else to arrive before entering.

  8. #8
    813capt
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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    the address wasnt 5 Stone Arch, it was 19 Stone Arch. Also the landscaper did not fall into the hole, he was inside digging and the dirt fell in around him

  9. #9

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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    The patient was in serious condition. In assessing the patient from above the hole, the patient was semi-conscious, in respiratory distress with obvious lower extremity injuries. The 2 chiefs pulled the patient out of the hole without entering the deepest part. The chiefs positioned themselves on higher ground that was only dug about 18" down. Using long handle shovels the dirt was removed from the patient's lower extremities from above and he was pulled out using his upper extremities and torso while supporting his c-spine. The decision to call a team like Bethpage was discussed however, it was determined that there was a feasible way to remove the patient from the hole without putting the first responders in grave danger, being that he was in serious condition. The patient ended up having a questionable femur fracture and/or pelvic fracture, which we all know can lead to a large amount of internally bleeding, becoming fatal quickly.

  10. #10

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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    This sounds like the Chiefs made a split second decision, due to the condtion of the patient, their actions should be applauded and not critiqued, we are in the business of saving lives and this does not come without risks, should they stopped at every red light on the way to the call because they might of gotten into an accident????

  11. #11
    SQUAD1CHIEF
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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    fd6009 you explain and describe a much different scenario than previously mentioned 18 inches would not define a trench.....a trench is deeper than it is wide. this obvioulsy changes my opinion of there efforts. but as always on this the true story and the facts are not always the same. and more importantly always room for good worthy discussions on the not so routine runs we respond to.

  12. #12
    Rant Moderator zeroone
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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    No, the lanscaper was in a trench, however, the chiefs did not enter that area of the trench where the victim was. there was a shallow area which was 18" deep which they stepped into to grab the landscaper. Maybe i wasn't too clear on that with my first post. in speaking with the IC - they made a split second decision based on the patients condition and the fact they were able to grab him and pull him up. Had that not been the case, TRT teams would have been called as well as a Vac Truck from the county.
    "The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self restraint enough to keep from meddling with them while they do it". -T. Roosevelt

  13. #13

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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    Quote Originally Posted by LB231X View Post
    This sounds like the Chiefs made a split second decision, due to the condtion of the patient, their actions should be applauded and not critiqued, we are in the business of saving lives and this does not come without risks, should they stopped at every red light on the way to the call because they might of gotten into an accident????
    That is what the VTL requires of all emergency vehicles.

  14. #14
    exnewhydeparkcap
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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    Quote Originally Posted by underthedome View Post
    That is what the VTL requires of all emergency vehicles.
    Thats a joke right !!

    LB21X is 100% correct with his post
    Sticking feathers up your butt doesnt make you a chicken-Tyler Durden

    Wearing bunker gear and a Scott pack don't make you a Firefighter-ExNewHydeParkCaptain

  15. #15

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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    TRT teams should be notified as soon as posible...there response time is often delayed due to the fact they are coming from a distance and the need for numberous personel and equipment. You can always turn them around if they are not needed.

    Trench opperation are a extremly dangerous ..there are many documanted cases of secondary collapse and would be rescuers becomeing victums.
    " Its just a walk in the park"

  16. #16

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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    Quote Originally Posted by LB231X View Post
    This sounds like the Chiefs made a split second decision, due to the condtion of the patient, their actions should be applauded and not critiqued, we are in the business of saving lives and this does not come without risks, should they stopped at every red light on the way to the call because they might of gotten into an accident????

    Thank you LB231X. Eloquently stated. I wanted to say the same thing since the questions/critiques began, however they would have seemed biased for obvious reasons. Both of these men are fine leaders with extensive experience as are the rest of the chiefs in these 2 departments' I am not saying that there are situations when m/a from departments with expertise in certain areas shouldn't be considered, however waiting for said mutual may have resulted in a different outcome for the patient, if said mutual aid were needed they are sensible enough to realize it and would not have hesitated calling. Kudos to the chiefs for getting it done safely and quickly and getting the patient off to receive the proper medical attention.

  17. #17

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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    Quote Originally Posted by underthedome View Post
    That is what the VTL requires of all emergency vehicles.
    You need to re-read the New York State Vehicle and Traffic Law, I beleive the proper term is "use due regard"

  18. #18
    newguy
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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    Quote Originally Posted by SQUAD1CHIEF View Post
    In my opinion this was an extremely dangerous risk first responders took to remove a patient with a non life threatening lower extremity injury. trench cave ins are very dangerous and kill many people a year. remember we didnt put that victim in his predicament. a good incident commander will call for necessary resources and not allow anyone in the trench unitl it is supported with trench panels and struts at a minimum. this could have easliy escalated into members becoming trapped due to a secondary cave in. Dirt moves very fast you are not moving out of its way. more importantly the weather has also been a factor in loosening up the local earth with alot of rain lately.
    debateable is not going to explain to our brother FF's family why he or she is dead. we need to think before we react especially in confined space, trench, and haz mat incidents slow it down get the victim out properly by shoring up metering and ultimately making it safe for us to enter.
    First off lets cut all the bull sh*t, when i got there OWPD was standing over the hole with o2 on the vic. There was one of his fellow day laborers standing on top of him with a shovel trying to dig him out. It was about 6 ft. deep and he was buried from the waist down, the guy wasnt in great shape.(very pale, in and out) once 5902 arrived on scene I told the laborer with the shovel to get out and I started to dig out the victim. once the victim was free from the soil 5902 assisted me in the removal, at that 5902 assited with first aid. At no time were we in any extreme danger there 6 cops, 2 county techs, and units on the way. as i can see from your past posts you have been around for a little while so you should know sometimes you have to take a chance. Maybe next time we'll give ya a call-5900

  19. #19
    exnewhydeparkcap
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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    Point Blank If It Was Your Family Member In That Hole You Would Be Kissing The Guys Ass. So Stop The Bull Shit We Are Firemen There Is The Slight Possibility We Could Get Hurt And We Do Every Thing In Our Power Not To Get Hurt But Its Part Of The Job ( Even If We Dont Get Paid For It ) I Say Great Job To The Members Who Went In And Did It. Anyone Who Complains Should Join The Tulip Planters Association I Hear They Meet On Wed Nights At Wine O'clock
    Sticking feathers up your butt doesnt make you a chicken-Tyler Durden

    Wearing bunker gear and a Scott pack don't make you a Firefighter-ExNewHydeParkCaptain

  20. #20

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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    Once again people are misinformed about what the VTL says and doesn't say. It does not require a stop before going thru a red light, though many FD's own procedures require a stop. Section 1104 (b) (2) states that an emerg. vehicle may: "proceed past a steady red signal, but only after slowing down as may be necessary for safe operation."

    Section 1104 (e) contains the provision re: "the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons."

    If anyone has any doubts about any of this you can purchase your own copy of the VTL, like I did many years ago to put to rest all the misinformation everybody was always telling me.

  21. #21
    exnewhydeparkcap
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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    Who Give A Crap About The Vtl On Here !!!! I Thought This Was A Fire Site

    CAN WE START ANOTHER POLL WHO GIVES A RATS ASS ABOUT THE V.T.L.
    Sticking feathers up your butt doesnt make you a chicken-Tyler Durden

    Wearing bunker gear and a Scott pack don't make you a Firefighter-ExNewHydeParkCaptain

  22. #22
    SQUAD1CHIEF
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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    My concern is not if we get called but so Firefighters are aware of the risks if entering a Trench Cave In. Intitial reports on this rant were very different mfrom the previous ones. and lets be honest with the Nassau FD rant site. EVERYONE DOES GOOD NOBODY MAKES ANY MISTAKES IN THIS COUNTY. that is not how we get better there are ALOT of young guys on this thing who seem to now it all. trust me I was that guy 19 years ago. but because I made mistakes and other people called me on them it made me a much better firefighter and fire officer. it is sad to see how defensive we get on this thing and I know it is our nature as men and Firefighters to defend our actions but I also know we should not sugar coat everything we do as Nassau County Firefighters. I realize this is off subject. and this in no way is reflective of this incident. but discussions should be and can be more criticizing.

  23. #23
    The New Boss ex4100
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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    I believe everyone involved with this rescue are presented with a wonderful opportunity. It is clear that the initial reports did not clearly describe what Roslyn encountered when they arrived. Fine. That has been clarified.

    Other Ranters have chimed in with questions and comments. Some of these comments were based on past experiences and some questions were aimed at better understanding what was done to remove the victim from the hole.

    Now that we have had a discussion about the incident I have a suggestion. For those of you who have experience and additional training on these incidents contact the brothers at Roslyn and set up a joint training and familiarization of this type of rescue. OR perhaps the Roslyn Chiefs can contact Bethpage and set up a meeting to discuss the events of the rescue and have have a brainstorming session as to how to approach such a rescue in the future. This is a chance to do some real hand-on training with another department that you might or might not have to work with in the future. [Who knows, maybe these departments will be on a standby together in the future and have to run together on alarms].

    There is no need to throw stones. Is there any reason why departments cannot share information and experiences in order to be better at what you do? Who cares if you're not in the same Battalion!?!

    Yes, on the Rant often times there is an "adda boy" syndrome. We are all guilty of it at some point. But before criticism turns into an all out war why not take the time to look for the positives that can emerge from an unusual situation like this one??

    As a Chief officer, I never encountered this type of emergency. But if I did, I would be looking to get as much information and training on it as possible in order to be prepared for the next one. And if I possessed training or information that could help out another department I would most certainly reach out and offer it to them.

    At the end of the day, it's all about getting the job done and everyone going home safely.

    Be safe everyone.

  24. #24

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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    I think the chiefs did a great job. If I was the victim i would hope the same treatment was done to me instead of a few chiefs looking down at me calling for a trench rescue team or technical rescue team from who knows where. When you except the chief car and the title you are going to be first do with know help and going to have to make split sounds decisions. Hopefully these chiefs get written up for medals.

  25. #25
    Rant Moderator 5801
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    Default Re: Trench Rescue - Old Westbury - Roslyn FD

    Ex4100 has said it well (as he usually does).

    I would just add, though, that one of the benefits of the Rant (in addition to seeing that Emergency Season 6 DVD's are available) is the conversation that happened in this post. I think that when most Ranters read each post, there is a natural tendency to ask themselves "what would I do in this situation"? That is called Learning. Truth is that most of us have never been involved with a trench rescue - the points brought up here all serve to educate us a little bit better. That should in no way be a reflection on 5900/5902, who are great firemen (and leaders), and who did a great job. But the next (and probably first) time another Ranter is in the same situation, and the hole is deeper, or more unstable, maybe some of the material posted here will serve him well.

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